爆料王

How scared are you of sharks?

Almost everyone will answer with: very. That includes people living smack bang in the middle of the US, nowhere near an ocean. This fear has changed the way we interact with the ocean, and scientists worry that we might be making the water more dangerous for humans by accident.

Scientists and explain how our fear of sharks has been bolstered by culture, and share the research showing that some of our protective methods are actually putting us in greater danger.

Mark Scott聽聽00:00

This podcast is recorded at the 爆料王's Camperdown campus, on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. They've been discovering and sharing knowledge here for 10s of 1000s of years. I pay my respects to elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽00:28

For 20 years, governments have hired me and flown me around the world to do beach assessments for how to in particular, how to reduce clusters of shark bites following bull shark attacks. I'm not specifically on the biology side, but I am specifically on the protecting human side. And if I thought that it would make you safer by killing bull sharks, I would tell you.

Mark Scott聽聽00:53

Dr. Christopher Pepin-Neff studies sharks, but not in the way you think. Their work looks at how fear spreads, how media shapes the narrative, and how policy follows.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽01:05

My position is not like the, we protect the sharks, and I'm pro shark first and person second, and humans just need to not use the ocean. My position is the opposite, but there are smart ways to do it that are evidence-based, and I'm just telling you that having done this research for 20 years that, that there is no evidence that a shark cull reduces the risk of a shark attack.

Mark Scott聽聽01:36

Our relationship with sharks is complicated. Sharks are feared worldwide, even in places way inland from any ocean. Biting incidents are reported with fervour and intense emotion, but researchers increasingly believe we've misjudged sharks. And yet, how do you tell someone who's been bitten by a shark, or who's lost a loved one in the ocean, that these animals aren't as dangerous as they think? At the same time, scientists are clear that shark interactions, or really any interaction with the ocean, can be deadly. So in Australia, girt by sea as we are, how do we manage that risk, when it's so deeply tied to our culture and our way of life? I'm Mark Scott, and this is The Solutionists. This recording was done at a live public talks event presented by Sydney Ideas, the 爆料王's flagship public talks program. Helen Sullivan, a senior journalist from the BBC, sat down with two scientists to unpack the myths around sharks and how our misunderstandings might put us in more danger than the truth. Dr. Christopher Pepin-Neff is an Associate Professor in Public Policy in the Discipline of Government and International Relations, in the School of Social and Political Sciences at the 爆料王. Dr. Vanessa Pirotta is a whale and wildlife scientist from Macquarie University. Here's Helen.

Helen Sullivan聽聽03:18

Does the Australian government have accurate data on white shark populations and bull shark populations?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽03:23

So the data is evolving, is probably the most diplomatic way to say pretty not good. So previous studies over the last 20 years, we鈥檙e looking at really small populations of white sharks, for instance. So for about maybe 15, 20 years, the demographic data they had were from six sharks, so that was kind of where the data was coming from. And so now, what we've been able to do, that Clark and others, who, Paul Butler and others here at New South Wales DPI, have, have done genomic testing that's much more accurate, and it raises a bunch more questions about the population size. So, for white sharks, for instance, it's sort of several thousand on either side of Australia. But they used to believe that the white shark population, for instance, was only on the, the population on the east coast was only on the East Coast, and the population on the west coast was only on the West Coast, and Adelaide was kind of the middle line. We don't say that anymore. There's a lot of inbreeding, which actually raises a lot of questions, and this is one of the reasons why the genomic testing was so important, was 鈥榗ause it basically revealed that it's a very fragile population. So you might say there are 4000 white sharks, but it's very fragile. So the potential for a cascade that could impact them is really quite significant. If I can say on the bull sharks very quickly, I might also just note that, you know, I work with Amy Smoothey. I've been out with DPI tagging bull sharks in Sydney Harbour, and the, the data on that is a little bit better. I don't, I wouldn't say that it's perfect, but it's better because they're doing that, you sort of go out at midnight, and then and then at 4:00 a.m. after you've hooked them, you put a receiver on the inside, and it's part of the listening stations that they're setting up now. So their ability to identify the population and track the population is really, we, we've sort of done a really good job just recently. So white sharks are pelagic, which means they travel the whole ocean. So tracking them is much more difficult. Bull sharks have site fidelity, which means that the bull sharks that are in the Brisbane River in the winter for us or in the summer, come to Sydney Harbour, right? So that's the sort of similar population. So you can track that a little bit better because they've got site fidelity. But the white sharks is much harder because they're travelling the whole the whole ocean.

Helen Sullivan聽聽05:51

There are many types of sharks, presumably threatened by many types of things. But do we know what some of the biggest threats are to sharks in Australian waters?

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽05:58

Actually, like whales. So I'm just putting it out there. I'm not a shark scientist. So if you've got a problem with me, I'm not a shark scientist. What I do know is that things relating to sharks impact the animals I study, which are whales. Can everyone see Winston? He's entangled in a shark net. He's entangled in fishing gear, that's not shark nets. He's entangled in all these other things. Shark nets, any type of nets, ghost nets, pollution in the ocean is a problem for both whales and sharks. The amount of fishing hooks we see sharks have in their mouth is so cruel. These poor things are swimming around this thing in their mouth. It's awful. Acoustic pollution. That's the sound of an underwater, a boat, and there are so many different impacts that sharks face, and all marine creatures face. I've just said a few. You want to name a few?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽06:49

I mean, I'd say there's over 500 species of sharks, and we discover new ones all the time. The Greenland shark, for instance, is blind. It's over 400 years old. We're talking about over 500 species, and we've got about five that can be dangerous to people. And you're not going to hear me say 鈥淪harks aren't dangerous. Go hug a shark鈥�. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there are five species that we need to be aware of, that can absolutely be dangerous, and we need to, we need to be careful around. And then there's over 500 other species like the wobbes. So 10% of all shark attacks in Australia are from wobbegongs because people step on them and then they turn around and bite them. Right? They're sort of sitting, they're like bottom dwelling. So, there, there are lots of them. And so when we talk about, you know, human shark interactions and, and things like that, it's just also important to note that like, some of them are the wobbegongs that, that get counted in this, in this mass of, of shark stuff.

Helen Sullivan聽聽07:48

And so, what are the five kinds? So white, yeah?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽07:50

So, so we got bull sharks, white sharks, tiger sharks, oceanic white tips is probably the newer one that we don't talk about a lot. But any, if you've ever seen a movie where the plane has crashed and now they're on the raft and they're floating. The shark that swam up was an oceanic white tip. That's the answer to the question. Even if, in the movie it wasn't, it was.

Helen Sullivan聽聽08:14

Because they're curious?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽08:15

Because they're scavengers,

Helen Sullivan聽聽08:18

Okay.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽08:18

And they're very, they tend to be quite aggressive. And because, again remember, when you're an apex predator, you were opportunistic. You've never met anything that can hurt you. That's how you become an apex predator.

Helen Sullivan聽聽08:31

So this brings me to the next question that was submitted with registration, which was, is culling bull sharks an option to make water safer?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽08:40

So, I know the answer.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽08:43

What's the answer?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽08:44

The answer is that culling doesn't work. So I've done this for 20 years. So for 20 years, governments have hired me and flown me around the world to do beach assessments, for how to, in particular, how to reduce clusters of shark bites following bull shark attacks. That is what I do for a living. And I'm not a marine scientist either, I did my PhD, and I've got three degrees in the politics of shark attacks. I spent a year tagging great whites in South Africa. My friends are shark scientists, this is what I do for a living. But I'm not specifically on the biology side. But I am specifically on the protecting human side. So I put human life first, in the work that I do. And if I thought that it would make you safer by killing bull sharks, I would tell you. Do I seem like someone who has a hard time expressing their opinion? So what, what I'm telling you. So I went to Reunion, and they were going to do a cull. Reunion Island off the coast of Madagascar, over by Mauritius in South Africa, and they did a cull, and it didn't make a difference. And then I went to, and then I worked with Egypt, and they had a cull, and it didn't make a difference. And the data out of Hawaii, they did a cull for 17 years, and it didn't make a difference. And the data out of New South Wales and the shark nets, which are kind of culling nets, didn't make a difference. I, I have zero papers that show that culls work. They, there, there is no data. What I do have is papers that show that there are attractants like sewage and rainfall and cleaning fish on the jetty. I'm sorry. If it were the sharks, I would tell you it's the sharks, and I would say, I don't have a problem. Bull sharks are not protected. I have no problem telling you to kill the bull sharks, if I thought it would help you. But I'm telling you that it's a distraction, and what we should be doing is banning fishing off the jetty, cleaning fish off the jetty, putting in more enclosures, doing a listening station. There, I mean, I said to this council, which shall remain Mossman, that, that they should put out an enclosure for Sunday mornings for nippers. Why don't you put out a temporary net? It's low tide. It's the harbour. It's a low energy beach. Put it out on Sunday mornings for nippers to go out at 8 a.m. The kids go out, have a good. There's a, there's an enclosure net at Cottesloe Beach in WA. I did that, in 2012. So I, I think we should be using the ocean more, right? My position is not like the, should we protect the sharks, and I'm pro shark first and person second, and humans just need to not use the ocean. My position is the opposite, but there are smart ways to do it that are evidence-based, and I'm just telling you that having done this research for 20 years, that, that there is no evidence that a shark cull reduces the risk of a shark attack. So I was the subject matter expert for the KPMG report on the shark control program in Queensland, which was their big $88 million kill the sharks plan. And my contribution to that was whales, because everybody knows that Queensland's a humpback highway,聽

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽11:39

Well, east coast.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽11:39

And they're calving. Sorry, right, the East Coast. So, and they're, they're calving, they're birthing, they're doing. There's just, there's a whole biodiversity thing trailing behind them, and they're swimming and getting caught in the nets. So, where are the people? If the whales that are birthing and have little bitty, what is it called? Cubs?

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽11:57

颁补濒惫别蝉.听

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽11:58

Calves. Right. Are with them, that, see? Then, then where are the people? Because they're in the water too, and that was my contribution to that, to that part of the report. They were like, "Oh, we're not. We're going to keep the, the nets鈥�. And I'm like, the nets aren't your problem. The problem is you have an attractant in the water, and you've got a humpback highway that is attracting every shark, every tiger shark, all the, all the different sharks to that area.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽12:23

So this is, we might as well address the elephant in the room, shark nets, if we can. A shark net is a piece of fishing gear. Essentially, it's gear. A net that goes across part of a beach. You can swim above or below it, and you can actually swim around it. So it's not actually a full net on the beach, I don't know if, many of people probably know that. It's kind of like a little band aid.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽12:48

Yeah, it's 150 metres wide.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽12:50

And non-target animals. This is all publicly available information, but non-target animals get caught in there. My entire master's thesis was trying to, was looking at the use of acoustic alarms to acoustically, beep, alert whale presence, and we found it didn't really work. At least in one type of scenario, there's a lot of noises in the ocean. I just really wanted the whales to go, 鈥淭here's a net there. I'm getting out鈥�. But unfortunately, every single year, we guarantee, I鈥檒l put 50 bucks on it, more even. There will be a whale entangled in shark nets this year. And when that happens, it's cruel and it's an awful thing. And I've spent time with the Sea World Foundation on learning how to disentangle whales. It's very dangerous. People have died doing it. It would be an amazing thing if we didn't have those there, but I understand that it's not going to be a, a simple fix. So, as a scientist, trying to find ways around that, rather than push against, is the way forward. Because we know we still have ships in the ocean. Ships hit and kill whales. What am I going to do, point the finger at ships? We need to work together collectively to try and find solutions to these problems, and that's important.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽14:02

So I would say that shark nets are dangerous, and they should take them out now, because they're putting you in danger. So shark nets catch, it's a gill net. That's all it is. It's just an old-fashioned fishing net that your grandfather used to catch fish. Just a gill net. A gill net catches the shark and the gill. That's how it catches the shark, that's what the shark net is. And you put it out there, and now you've got the things that get caught in the net, right? I could care less about the turtles and the things. But when they get caught in the net, they send out these vibrations. And that vibration is heard by the local shark population, and it's like ringing the dinner bell. So shark nets in front of your beach is attracting sharks to a local area. And when DPI, New South Wales DPI, and we've seen it in Queensland from the Department of Primary Industries, they have like observers on the boats when they go out. They check the nets every couple days or something. And when, when they pull in the net, they'll like take a picture. Well, what kind of thing do you think makes a shark bite that's that big? 40% of the sharks that are caught in a shark net are caught on the inside of the net. They're feeding on the nets. We know that from DPI's data. We know that from this. That, that data, the 40% data, was the New South Wales Shark Scientific Committee in 1994. This is not new data. Shark nets don't work. I think they're dangerous. They also provide a false sense of security, if you maybe you think it's a full enclosure. But there's also you know it, it creates this idea that like the ocean is safe, right? Because the theory is right, all sharks are dangerous and all beaches are safe, and it's the opposite. Not all sharks are dangerous... five. And, and, and the beach is a dynamic ecosystem. So, the beach is really never safe, right? And if you talk to any surf lifesaver, they would say every 10 minutes it's changing, it's evolving. We need to be careful when we go in the ocean. It's just this dynamic ecosystem. So my, my narrative on shark nets is pretty. Again, I've got zero studies that show that shark nets prevent shark bites, and I've got five studies that say that gill nets attract sharks to an area.

Helen Sullivan聽聽16:06

So, if there is a sort of overarching philosophy or, or way we can think about this, or one message that, that people who love the ocean and who love people, can take out into the world, what is that? How should we think about the ocean, our interactions with the ocean and, and sharks?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽16:22

So in the United States, there was a, Ipsos did a poll, and it said, "How afraid are you of sharks?鈥� And the biggest majority of people who were afraid of sharks were on the East Coast, over by New York, in the, the coast. And it was 52% of people were scared of sharks. 51% of people were most scared of sharks in Idaho. So everybody's got a different relationship with sharks. And it may, and you know, in... So what I do for a living is when there's a shark bite, particularly when there's a cluster. I go to Ballina and I do a public survey, and I went to Perth, and I went to Reunion, and I went to Cape Town, and I went to New Smyrna Beach in Florida. And my point in every community, sometimes, you know, communities that know, the know the ocean maybe a little bit better understand that it comes with risks and things like that. That doesn't mean that these things aren't tragedies. I'm not, that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that the ocean is a very dynamic environment. And I always say that we're looking at really three things. Shark activity, human activity, and environmental conditions. And the answer to every question, in case you're wondering, I'll just give you the the headline, water temperature. Water temperature, water temperature, water temperature. If you want to know when there's a shark in the area, besides that it's salt water or fresh water, that its surface water temperature is the motivating principle. They're moving toward the attractants. Which is why, I'm sorry, it's not about the number of sharks. It's about the attractants, and water temperature is the key motivating principle, because the bait fish are following the water temperature and the water column. And then the bull sharks or the white sharks, or the oceanic white tips, or whatever it is, is following that. And you can do it, I mean, if I was telling a climate scientist how to get people's attention to climate change, I would say do a shark attack forecast every day and look at the water column, look at the water temperature.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽18:15

Can I just interject? I have to, but krill also. If you don't know what krill are, they're in Antarctica, and humpback whales are reliant on krill. If we lose due to surface warming of the oceans, if we lose sea ice, we lose the ability of ice to reflect heat, the albedo effect. But also, we lose habitat for keystone species, which is Antarctic krill, which these animals are reliant on. So, just like sharks, the way in which we look at whale movements is very much dictated by where their prey are. And sometimes it takes the animal the size of a school bus, or a 2.3 metre shark to tell us where the activity is. So it's also an opportunity for us as humans as well, to be kind of thinking about, what are we seeing? And we always think we have to use all this tech and stuff to do this, but just simple observations as well can be quite powerful. And I know that there are people in this room that are fishers, that are surfers, and honestly, they probably know a lot more about the conditions of Sydney than you and I. I'm very honest about that. Because you are living and breathing the environment, and I want to know that, I want you to know that we acknowledge that, or at least I can't speak on behalf of you. But we acknowledge that you, you have awareness to this, and that that interconnectivity and looking at how animals move in response to a changing world that we're all part of, is incredibly important, this narrative, in understanding how we go forward, for an look essentially looking at how we as humans interact with the ocean and the potential dictators that may increase our chances or likelihood of an overlap with one of these animals, which essentially it is an overlap. And there are many overlaps. Fortunately, many are not negative, but some are. And so it's just a reminder that we are coexisting in a space, and that there's no, I don't think, and I don't ever want to anthropomorphise, but I don't. I don't believe that a whale looks at a human and goes, "That's a human鈥�. I don't think a shark does the same thing. So we're just making sure we're not anthropomorphising it, but we're trying to understand it from multi levels here, so we can be informed to ask good questions.

Helen Sullivan聽聽20:24

In terms of temperature and, and, and attractants in the water and that sort of thing, would it be? I mean, is it fair to say? I'm trying to think about kind of how you would teach kids about sharks, but also being safe in the ocean. I mean, would it be fair to say that it's almost, you've got to learn to look out for this, the signs when, the signs of when sharks might be more likely to be around, or are there so few that, that wouldn't really be?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽20:49

Can I give you one? You want to see a shark, A go spear fishing. If you want to see a shark, go spear fishing. That's what I always say. Like not everything has the same amount of risk. The other thing is the presence of dolphins means it's more likely there's a shark. Not less likely.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽21:02

No, sometimes.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽21:03

Sometimes, but the, you, you would not agree that every flipper is out defending the human from,

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽21:10

I once had the Today Show go, well, 鈥淚f I see a dorsal fin at the beach, I'm going to think it's a shark鈥�. And I said to that interviewer, Well, what if it's a dolphin? We're studying the dolphins of Sydney Harbour. It's never been done before, but you know this is like flipping it on. Why do we instantly think negative?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽21:26

But my point is that sharks and dolphins eat the same thing. If you see a bait ball and you see dolphins and sharks there, whether it's at any of these different locations, the presence of dolphins in the water can increase the level of risk, not be the protection that you think it may be. And I think sometimes when we think about the ocean there, we, there's just a lot. We're kind of myth busting today. Like, like the ocean is a dynamic ecosystem. The presence of dolphins may increase the risk. Water temperature. So the easy answer, I'm sorry, there's no easy answers. But I can give you my little American soundbite, which is that bull sharks at 20 degrees celsius and more come toward the surface, and white sharks at 20 degrees and less come toward the surface. So those are white sharks don't like it really warm, and bull sharks really like it warm. So if you just need a number to leave here with today, it's 20 degrees celsius.

Helen Sullivan聽聽22:17

And so could you have a kind of shark index? Like,

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽22:19

驰别蝉!听

Helen Sullivan聽聽22:20

If it's, it's, it's rained,聽

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽22:22

Yeah.

Helen Sullivan聽聽22:22

So there's likely to be a lot of pollution in the water.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽22:25

Somebody should call the Mossman City Council,

Helen Sullivan聽聽22:26

Above 20 degrees,

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽22:26

And see what my report looks like.听

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽22:28

So,

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽22:29

This is, this is what, this is what I did because one of the things that we also saw was, again, that so, because the you've got the, again it's human activity, shark activity, environmental conditions. So surface water temperature, rain, are you fishing off the jetty on top of the thing? Like if I went to Balmoral and, there and, people are gutting the fish off the jetty, I think that would be a bad time to go in the water. And when every time we talk about, and I'm just going to say it. Every time we talk about culling, there's still somebody gutting a fish over a jetty while the morning swimmers are doing their morning swim every day of the morning. So I, I just would like to do the things that will protect the people, and that's, that's really all I care about.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽23:13

And education is part of that. So kind of like having a UV index, we could have a shark likelihood rating. I think that's a really, I think that's really practical. And then also, we teach nippers in school. Why don't we teach shark safety as well? I don't think that's unreasonable. Plus, we could also sneak in some really cool biology for these students. And, and and also, I know that we're dealing with generations. Can I just point out? You know, the first shark net's what? 1937?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽23:40

Yes.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽23:41

That's a long time ago. And so I understand why some people have only ever known there to be shark nets. I get that. And so the idea of removing them would be the silliest, most ridiculous thing, right? It's, I understand that many of you have grown up with shark nets, so it's all about providing. I think we, we need to do a better job at this. And I guess at the end of the day, with information, we can all go and make good decisions. Like after this tonight, you might go have dinner and go, "Those people are crazy, but I did learn this鈥�. Or, and then at the water cooler tomorrow. Did you know a baby shark is caught a pup? I don't know, but, but there's these.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽24:23

I know a baby whale is called a calf.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽24:26

Job done. But the, you know, so you understand. So it's in, gone are the days. This, this kind of thing we're having right now, would never happen. It would, you know what we would do? We would go behind our dodgy desks and start you know putting the hacker thing. We're not hackers. But we would be writing about this and publish a paper in five years' time, the findings back then showed this. This is, this is, we're entering a new era of making sure scientists connect with the people who want to be informed as well.

Helen Sullivan聽聽24:55

In the name of that, can you? I'm asking this question in good faith. Do sharks attack on purpose?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽25:04

Shark bites are a biological failure. So the moment the teeth touch a human, and it depends on different sharks react differently. But I can tell you that the amount of energy that it takes for, A, they don't know what we are. So we don't know we are. We'll often see white sharks that treat jellyfish and seaweed the same way they bite people, like I've seen it. And so that's the first. And so they don't know what we are, right? The second thing is, what was my first point? So the,

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽25:33

Do they attack,

Helen Sullivan聽聽25:33

That it鈥檚 a biological failure?

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽25:35

That, that it's a biological failure. So the amount of energy. Think you're an apex predator. Just do it for me for 10 seconds. So your job is to maximise the benefit you gain, and minimise the amount of energy you spend. That's your job as an apex predator. That's your only job. That's how you become the apex predator, right? By maximising what you gain and minimising what you lose. We are a biological failure. They do not get what they need from biting us. So there, most shark bites are curiosity, could be mistaken identity, can also be defensiveness. They don't know what we are. So when we go in the water, we're really big. We're really big. We flop in the water. Everybody in town knows we're there, and it kind of draws them in. So when you end up in that, and if you're an opportunistic predator, that's an apex predator that's never known anything that could harm it. You come and investigate. You're curious. Maybe you're defensive. Maybe you're there hunting. Maybe you're doing something, and then the human was there. So again, looking at it from that point of view, I think helps inform how we approach the ocean.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽26:42

And just echoing your words, it's a, it's an overlap in the same environment, and some of those interactions are just nothing comes of it, and some of them are negative.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽26:54

Wait, can I say at the same time that I always say we're in the way, not in the menu? These are devastating. They're devastating for the individual families, they're devastating for communities. I, I mean, with all due respect to, I mean, this is a terrible job. People are like, oh, I saw you in Sunrise. I'm like, that means something terrible has happened to someone. And I take that very seriously, when I say that my job is to try and educate the public, tell them the truth, and keep them safe. So I'm not gonna lie. I don't make any money. I mean, I have, I'm a professor. It's a good job. I'm not giving it up. But my point is that like, there's no. We're not being paid to be here today.听

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽27:32

There鈥檚 no gain.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽27:33

There's no cabal of shark scientists that are, you know, whatever. Like, and so all I can tell you is the truth. That's the only thing I've, that I've got to say.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽27:41

And the fact that people want to know about these things when they happen is a very much big reflection of how there is a thirst for knowledge. There is a way to go about it. One of my interviews with the Today Show did the rounds with Karl Stefanovic and Sarah Abo, and it was an opportunity for me to essentially calm the narrative. Because we need at times when these things happen not to sensationalise what's happened. We need to tell people that there is a support network like Bite Club. If you haven't heard of Bite Club, you need to Google it. The reason I know so much about that is because one of my friends had a negative interaction. She's okay, but Bite Club reached out to her and was incredibly instrumental. When these things happen, it brings up trauma for many people. It's, people want answers, and someone like Chris and myself, who's not necessarily a shark scientist, but I'm very open about it, is there to provide information from an informed perspective. And that's really important. And that has really shown us recently just how important it is, for us to be very active in this space. Because people want to be informed, and we want to work together to learn together in an environment that we've just spoken about, that is so very much dynamic.

Helen Sullivan聽聽29:07

Of all of the kind of gadgets that you can buy, shark repellent magnets or wetsuits with stripes. What is, what is the most effective if you're a surfer or if you're if you swim in the mornings, kind of across the bay? Is there any evidence for what works the best?

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽29:22

Are you looking for a silver bullet?聽

Helen Sullivan聽聽29:24

No.

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽29:25

I mean, I'm going to say the first thing is water temperature, and I'm going to say the second thing is water temperature, and I'm going to say the third.听

Helen Sullivan聽聽29:30

Okay.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽29:31

Can you buy that?聽

Dr Chris Pepin-Neff聽聽29:25

But what I'd like to also add is that the amount of, of snake oil in the shark universe of people who've got the solution, the silver bullet that Vanessa keeps saying doesn't exist. I'm telling you, it doesn't exist. So there are some electronic shark deterrents. Carmen is here, and she's doing her PhD in the role of electronic shark deterrents. I've got two PhD students, they're both here. So people are looking at this. Drones are, are in my opinion, the best because the, with the AI technology. So sharks don't have water bladders, so you can't do sonar to detect it at a local beach. So you got to kind of go up above it with the drone. And with new AI technology to be able to see like the outline. Again, it's not perfect because you've got to have the right shark at the right surface with the right sunlight and the right wind and no whitecaps and all of that. But having said that, if you were to ask me the thing I'm most excited about at the moment, it's drone technology 鈥榗ause the AI thing is just a game changer.

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽30:28

And actually, there's been a few companies that have reached out to me. I don't know if you've had it, 鈥淰anessa. We're trying to do this thing. Can we put you as an ambassador?鈥� Of course you can't. That is just not what happens. I, I, it just, so just like the ocean, take everything with a grain of salt.

Helen Sullivan聽聽30:48

As a regular surfer, it is clear that in the last 30 years there has never been a summer like this one, with so many bull sharks and so many aggressive interactions. Do you think this is a one year aberration or the new normal?

Dr Vanessa Pirotta聽聽30:59

That's a good question, that is a really good question. So I just want to jump in here and acknowledge that there's a lot of merit in what surfers see. You're in the ocean, and I'm just sorry, because I know you're a surfer. So you put your hand up. Surfer. You see changes, and if you've been surfing in the same place over time, you're creating a catalogue of information. I work with the Gamay Rangers, the Indigenous Rangers in Gamay, Botany Bay, and I speak to their elders. They've seen things and how things have changed with the dolphins, for example, and Buriburi, the humpback whale. It is so important to acknowledge that there have been changes, and our world, as we know, with water temperature, it is getting warmer. We are also more connected than ever before, which means if we see something, we will tell people about it. So, for example, last Saturday off Bateman's Bay, people saw killer whales. That would never have happened if social media wasn't around, and someone went, "Vanessa, are these killer whales?鈥� And I go, yes, oh my god! So we are connected in more ways than ever before, which means our capacity for telling stories and documenting things is much better. There's greater effort. The science is being shared on news articles, social media. What people are seeing. There's now a surf cam. I know there's probably been surf cams for a while, but back 30 years ago, was there a surf cam? These are the kind of things I just want to bring to our attention. There probably is, there's probably more people, and I don't know 鈥榗ause I'm not informed. But are there more sharks? I don't know because we don't have the data on that.

Mark Scott聽聽32:48

That's whale and wildlife scientist Dr. Vanessa Pirotta. You also heard from political scientist Dr. Chris Pepin-Neff and host Helen Sullivan, senior journalist at the BBC. For more great ideas from the 爆料王, and to hear the full hour-long version of this public conversation, visit the Sydney Ideas website. We'll put a link in the show notes. The Solutionists is a podcast from the 爆料王, produced by Deadset Studios.ionists is a podcast from the 爆料王, produced by Deadset Studios.

The Solutionists is podcast from the 爆料王, produced by . Keep up to date with The Solutionists by following @sydney_uni on and .

This conversation is originally from a live public talks event, presented by Sydney Ideas 鈥� the 爆料王鈥檚 flagship public talks program. You can hear the full hour-long version of this public conversation here.听

This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. For thousands of years, across innumerable generations, knowledge has been taught, shared and exchanged here. We pay respect to elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.